Transcript of Hans Kluge’s (Director WHO Europe) interview on Danish TV

Hans Kluge (WHO): The mutation, somehow it’s a normal evolution, it’s the virus which tries to adapt to its host. The human body, let’s say, so it’s not a new virus, it’s not a new pandemic. But of course, we are concerned, particularly as it spreads so fast. What we have to monitor very well is the impact on the efficacy of the different vaccines. But ultimately, it does not change our strategy, if not a vaccine strategy, because if you would see that the efficacy due to the mutation decreases, the vaccine can be relatively easy, adapted without re engineering or whole new technology.

Interviewer: But then if it makes a new mutation, what then?

Hans Kluge (WHO): We see new mutations the whole time, so the best is we have to look at short term and long term, short term, we have to detect it very quick, like Denmark is doing, because it spreads so fast and we have to monitor the effect of the vaccine. Long term, the best strategy is to decrease the coronavirus in general.

Interviewer: So are you not worried that we see so many different variations right now? Don’t you think in any respect it might change the strategy?

Hans Kluge (WHO): It will not run out of control. The health systems, however, which are already under pressure, like we see in some countries, may become even more under pressure. So we take it very seriously. And we have to think once that the people get vaccinated, if they start to relax, they move around, while not everyone is vaccinated? That’s a tricky moment.

Interviewer: But if it doesn’t change the game plan, so to speak. What about the time schedule?.

Hans Kluge (WHO): Yeah, I think that’s the the key. The time schedule speed is our best friend as of today. It’s all about speed, speed will save lives. Speed will also protect the economy and ultimately decrease the likelihood of new mutations.

Interviewer: And then the big question, the question we all want you to answer, when is it likely that we’ll get our life, our everyday life back? If you’re not concerned that these mutations, they might change the game plan. So when will we get back our lives?

Hans Kluge (WHO): Well, 2021 is for sure going to be another covid-19 pandemic here, but I would say more predictable, more manageable in 2020. We knew nothing. We had nothing. We just locked up basically the people. So what needs to be done is a pan-European approach to scale up the vaccinations. At the same time, the people have to hang on still, right? I call it the three Ws. Wash your hands, watch your distance, wear a mask.

Interviewer: Yeah, we know them by now, everybody, but we also know lockdown’s. And so if you say this year it’s going to be another year where the pandemic will control much of our life, do you also believe that lockdowns will play such a huge role in this year?

Hans Kluge (WHO): Well, I would say speed is our best friend. And secondly, the worst is behind us. So I think we should be hopeful on the lockdown’s. We have consistently been advocating that this is a measure of last resort. Lockdowns suppress the virus is good. Unfortunately, we now know, it also suppresses the people. People are being pushed into mental health issues, into impoverishment. So it depends a lot on ourselves. Basically, I could say that a lockdown down somehow is a failure collectively to adhere to the basic public health measures.

Interviewer: But can you please expand on your reservations, on lockdown strategies? Should we continue locking down entire societies or is it not the right path to follow now?

Hans Kluge (WHO): Well, there’s a big difference, the lockdown today and one year ago. One year ago, I would say the lockdown was a shut down of society. We became much more smarter. And Denmark is a good example with the increased testing, genomic sequencing, that if something happens, Denmark is able to control it locally. And I think that is exactly what we have to come.

Interviewer: But as we speak in Denmark, schools are closed for many pupils, a lot of Danish companies, they are struggling with exactly this lockdown. The economy is widely affected. So and let’s talk about, for instance, September, October, if we see a third wave, so to speak, do you think a lockdown is the right measure?

Hans Kluge (WHO): Any measure has to be based on good epidemiological data and public health data. So in that sense, we speak about a tiered approach. It’s not any more open or close. There are many phases in between. So there’s three things to be done is absolutely we have to scale up the vaccination rollout. That’s absolutely necessary. Second are still the public health measures. And third one, let’s not forget that during the lockdown, we have to take advantage to scale up testing, isolating contact tracing and quarantine.

Interviewer: And in your opinion, as we speak, what is the scale of the pandemic right now?

Hans Kluge (WHO): In the European region, the 53 member states for which I’m responsible, it’s going in the right direction for the fifth consecutive week, new cases are going down for the third consecutive week, the deaths are going down and globally speaking, the proportion from Europe is also decreasing. So in that sense, it’s a good news. But we have to watch really this fast spread of the mutations.

Interviewer: And I just talked about the third wave. Do you think that’s likely in October or November in Europe, that we will begin it all again, a third wave and we have to lock down again? A lot of people are asking exactly this question.

Hans Kluge (WHO): Yes, I think it was the Danish philosopher, Soren Kierkegaard, who told life can only be understood looking backwards, but we have to live it forwards. So I would say it’s not first wave, second wave, third wave, it’s a continuum because we whenever we loosen the pressure on the virus, it goes up. So basically pressure down, the virus goes down, we lift. And if the virus is still there, which it is still there, it can go up. But let’s go with the vaccines. Let’s go with irresponsible behaviour that each of us has a responsibility.

Interviewer: And hopefully we will continue this discussion in a short while.

Interviewer: Hans Kluge, do you believe that if we increase testing, it just might help us getting our everyday life back?

Hans Kluge (WHO): Absolutely. This has been the core of the strategy to test, but not only to test, you have to be able to follow up. What happened in many countries is that the pandemic was fought in the hospitals. We never can control a pandemic only in the hospitals. We have to move it to the communities, to the people. And that’s why also self testing in the future is very important.

Interviewer: And we all remember the famous phrase test, test, test. China actually did so and it seems that they recovered from covid-19. What are the lessons we can learn from China?

Hans Kluge (WHO): Well, it’s always a little tricky to compare countries. Why? Because we have different societies, we have different governance structures, I think if you would have recommended to closed societies end of January when there were no deaths yet outside of China, I think this would have been received very, very difficult. But definitely we can learn that the behavior of the individuals and as a society really impacts, I think in the future also the European people will much quicker adapt their behavior to any set, including wearing masks.

Interviewer: But you might think that, you know, a test is a test. So if it works in China, it works in in Holland and Denmark, in Great Britain or wherever. So exactly if we focus on testing, what are the lessons from China that we can actually learn from that?

Hans Kluge (WHO): First and foremost, we need to have a sufficient supply and production capacity and that Europe is already thinking about these four tests, but also for personal protective equipment, eventually for medicines that we are quite vulnerable as a reason to depend on other regions to have enough supplies and enough stock when the war breaks out.

Interviewer: And then the big question and the capacity we hear about a home testing and so on, do you think it’s likely that we can do the same in Europe as we have seen in China?

Hans Kluge (WHO): It’s absolutely to be encouraged for a number of reasons, first and foremost, to increase the awareness among the people and also for them to follow the right behavior that other pandemics in the past, like, for example, on the HIV AIDS, that really make a huge U-turn ones that people could self-test at home. So we need to get it to the communities. Absolutely.

Interviewer: And if we look perhaps if we look for in a year from now, do you think can we go on treating covid-19 as a special disease? Maybe some would argue even more important than other severe diseases. People die from cancer. They die from a lot of severe diseases. Can we go on following this strategy that covid-19 is, so to speak, more important?

Hans Kluge (WHO): I think that’s a key point for all public health leaders in the region. We have been advocating for what we call a dual track. We don’t say diseases. We look at the patient, the person the WHO constitution is all about attaining the highest possible level of health for all it’s not about the lowest possible level of covid-19. You mentioned cancer. One out of three of us in Western Europe, one out of four in East Europe will develop cancer. And that’s why we launched a pan-European cancer movement, also the Mental Health Coalition. And I would like to take the opportunity to thank the patron of our office, her royal highness, Crown Princess Mary of Denmark, who has been standing with us to draw attention to all the other health issues, not at least mental health and school.

Interviewer: When are we home free, so to speak? When are we done with covid-19?

Hans Kluge (WHO): No one can predict the course of the pandemic. But I would say that as a working assumption, let’s say, beginning of 2022 we’ll be done with the pandemic. The virus will still be there, but I don’t think there will be a need for disruptive interventions. So I would like to send a message of optimism.

Interviewer: Thank you so much for joining us. It’s been a pleasure.

Hans Kluge (WHO): My pleasure. Thank you.